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Thread: AMD APU vs. Radeon GPU Open-Source Comparison

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    May I point you to one of my previous pages and the homepage of this site:

    From http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...836#post375836

    So either he is confused as to what his stated job is or he is trying to weasel out of doing what is expected of him by keeping up with his peers doing the same job on other sites.
    I am not confused, but you must be... This site is provided as-is, if you don't want to read it or provide anything useful besides just spieling the same stuff, please leave. If anyone the people I am just trying to please the most are premium members and those that have a stake in some form to the site or the software, and certainly not those using AdBlock, etc.

    Yes, Phoronix covers popular Linux game releases, other notable Linux / open-source gaming news, game benchmarks, etc. Just because another hardware review site publishes reviews one way, doesn't mean I need to do it that way.... Most of my "peers" also use Windows, should I go switch to being a Windows web-site too?

    In fact, none of my commercial PTS customers at any of the major hardware vendors have even requested game testing like you mention. (Such support to easily calculate the maximum resolution/IQ settings, etc, could easily be added as a PTS module within a couple dozen lines of code to auto-determine the maximum values while staying above 60 FPS or another threshold, but any manual testing will not be accepted.)

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    May I point you to one of my previous pages and the homepage of this site:

    From http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...836#post375836



    So either he is confused as to what his stated job is or he is trying to weasel out of doing what is expected of him by keeping up with his peers doing the same job on other sites.
    Do you think you can be a grown-up and simply point things out without petulance?
    I hadn't noticed that. Of course, it doesn't change the facts that the operator of the site doesn't consider this a gaming site.
    I suppose he talks about games a bit, but it seems like he's more interested in them from the perspective of them being of interest to the readers rather than following it b/c it is gaming.
    The way he benchmarks games is fine, I think. It's not too dissimilar from how anandtech reviews video cards (they aren't a gaming site either but they'll make use of games to benchmark hardware). In fact, I think Michael does a better job in general since he always lists the frame timings. Of course their analysis is far better but they've got a much larger staff.
    Certainly he could improve things greatly by presenting data in an easier to parse way, and benchmark a wider variety of games but, for what resources he has, I think he does a fine job.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I am not confused, but you must be... This site is provided as-is, if you don't want to read it or provide anything useful besides just spieling the same stuff, please leave. If anyone the people I am just trying to please the most are premium members and those that have a stake in some form to the site or the software, and certainly not those using AdBlock, etc.

    Yes, Phoronix covers popular Linux game releases, other notable Linux / open-source gaming news, game benchmarks, etc. Just because another hardware review site publishes reviews one way, doesn't mean I need to do it that way.... Most of my "peers" also use Windows, should I go switch to being a Windows web-site too?

    In fact, none of my commercial PTS customers at any of the major hardware vendors have even requested game testing like you mention. (Such support to easily calculate the maximum resolution/IQ settings, etc, could easily be added as a PTS module within a couple dozen lines of code to auto-determine the maximum values while staying above 60 FPS or another threshold, but any manual testing will not be accepted.)
    Your job is to be the PCPer/HardOCP/Hardware Secrets equivalent to Linux just as Barefeats is the Mac equivalent. Granted Barefeats focuses more on the performance in pro apps like Motion, After Effects and OpenCL calculations but at least thery stay current even if that software and hardware is quite expensive.

    Now why would I do that and allow you to go on running the good name of Linux into the ground without saying anything back to you about it?

    Thing is, you are leaving money on the table and chasing off all but the circle jerk of zealots that have signed up for the premium service, as I've stated many times, I'm keeping adblock on for the site and not paying for it until you learn to make the site better.

    Define popular game. Nobody cares about half the games you've posted, really, Unvanquished and Euro Truck Simulator? Yet there are dozens that you have never posted about, if you remember about a year ago I posted a list of some 40 games that had been released over the previous 6 months that never once got a mention on Phoronix. These days there are hundreds you've missed, many quite good, I've got 120 or so games just on my Steam account, another 30+ on Desura, a good 60 in the wishlists waiting for when they come on sale or I've worked my way through my current library and have to buy more.

    Take a look around at the Windows review sites that I've listed here numerous times. Theres a reason why they use minimum framerate and actual frametime at the output cable numbers. Because those are the things that will harm user experience the most.

    What you test is garbage through and through and your "news" is always a regurgitation from other sources but without the common courtesy of a link back to the original article or mailing list you got it from which is standard practice on every other site on the internet.

    Oh the big boastful talk about the mythical commercial PTS clients that there is no list of, who would they be again?

    If you where serious about monetizing PTS you'd add FRAPS like functionality to get constant feedback on framerate and temps mid game as well as built in video capture since none of the desktop capturing software on Linux currently works all that good, even after much tweaking I can either have it crash after 5 mins or have no sound but not both unless I run the audio recording in Audacity via a male-to-male minijack cable from the line in to the line out and then have to sync it manually in editing. Not having to do that is something I'd pay for.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    Do you think you can be a grown-up and simply point things out without petulance?
    I hadn't noticed that. Of course, it doesn't change the facts that the operator of the site doesn't consider this a gaming site.
    I suppose he talks about games a bit, but it seems like he's more interested in them from the perspective of them being of interest to the readers rather than following it b/c it is gaming.
    The way he benchmarks games is fine, I think. It's not too dissimilar from how anandtech reviews video cards (they aren't a gaming site either but they'll make use of games to benchmark hardware). In fact, I think Michael does a better job in general since he always lists the frame timings. Of course their analysis is far better but they've got a much larger staff.
    Certainly he could improve things greatly by presenting data in an easier to parse way, and benchmark a wider variety of games but, for what resources he has, I think he does a fine job.
    I tried being nice years ago, I gave up on that as it's less energy intensive on myself to be blunt instead of dancing around the subject. That is why it's called being blunt. It takes to much effort to be eloquent or tactful.

    Larabel's frame timings aren't being measured at the video output, go look up how PCPerspective does their frame time tests as this is the gold standard.

    Larabel could have a staff as well, if he actually tried to build a good site from the start instead of putting so many ads on it I had no choice but to use adblock just to make the site even readable, or do you not remember when the site didn't just have text that was mostly links back to previous Proronix articles but also had in line text ads filling in the gaps between those so that every page was just a pile of links, half of which if you accidentally placed the cursor over would open up into windows that would cover half of the page. Or how about the full page ads that would takeover the site floating over the page and wouldn't go away?

    It was crap like that of top of the bad reporting and bad netiquette(never citing sources of his articles and linking back to himself and only himself) that pisses me off about Larabel to this very day. When you question him about it you can see what he does, he complains about adblockers and says he only cares about the premium zealots. He should just shut the page down to all non premium members for a month then and see how well that goes for him.

    I long for the day someone else starts a new Linux hardware benchmarking site. Anyone have the time for it? Make a kickstarter and I'll be among your first contributors.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Larabel's frame timings aren't being measured at the video output, go look up how PCPerspective does their frame time tests as this is the gold standard.
    They are measured at the game engine, which is just as important. Frame latency at the engine level directly affects input latency, as the engine cannot process input for the next frame until the previous is out.

    Measuring frames at the screen is also important, but it's measuring a different variable, that of the output chain. It is not as well correlated to input latency, but is able to expose driver/screen cheating. Apples and oranges.

    TL;DR both measurements should be done, one is not better than the other.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    I tried being nice years ago, I gave up on that as it's less energy intensive on myself to be blunt instead of dancing around the subject. That is why it's called being blunt. It takes to much effort to be eloquent or tactful.
    I can't say that I dont understand the sentiment but, at a minimum, treat others as they treat you. If someone is being an ass, sure, be treat them the same, but if someone is being polite and engaging, please, act the same. It wastes no time. You don't need to dance around the subject (was the earlier question asking if I was genuinely blind? I assume not since then, I'd hope, you wouldn't be that insensitive. If the question was whether I am an idiot, well, you danced around that by asking if I'm blind) just say what you are trying to say. If you read what my posts I was responding to very specific points. One, that he doesn't include frame timings (he does, but not as you'd prefer them, but that wasn't what was said, or if it was, you were sufficiently unclear in your statement that you may as well have been, say, dancing around the issue...I won't mention that again The other point was that regardless of what you or I would like the site to be, it is what the site's owner/admin/writer says it is (well, obviously within reason and he doesn't claim something like "enter in all your personal data here to get your tax returns filed automatically by ME, the official site of the New IRS!"). The content he posts isn't really that much like a gaming site other than the benchmarks, and, as he says, the point of the benchmarks is to assess how well linux is progressing in whatever area is being tested, not the games themselves. Really, the games could be a blackbox that spits out a number/s, and what it acutally represents, and it would be just as useful.

    Larabel's frame timings aren't being measured at the video output, go look up how PCPerspective does their frame time tests as this is the gold standard.
    That's quite a bit of reading. You'll have to give me some time, but, without having read it, I can say that something needn't be the best to have worth. I haven't looked at larabel's code but he seems to be giving timings on a frame-by-frame basis (like FRAPs just started doing) rather than just screen capture. Given we that the drivers are open source you can always turn on debug and get the info straight from the driver (yeah, with overhead, but hopefully constant overhead for a given card). That should allow you to capture what pcper is trying to do but without using a separate computer (I haven't read it all yet so this is just what it looks like they are doing). I think this may be a case where oss has a benchmarking transparency advantage over any of the non-oss sites.


    Larabel could have a staff as well, if he actually tried to build a good site from the start instead of putting so many ads on it I had no choice but to use adblock just to make the site even readable, or do you not remember when the site didn't just have text that was mostly links back to previous Proronix articles but also had in line text ads filling in the gaps between those so that every page was just a pile of links, half of which if you accidentally placed the cursor over would open up into windows that would cover half of the page. Or how about the full page ads that would takeover the site floating over the page and wouldn't go away?

    It was crap like that of top of the bad reporting and bad netiquette(never citing sources of his articles and linking back to himself and only himself) that pisses me off about Larabel to this very day. When you question him about it you can see what he does, he complains about adblockers and says he only cares about the premium zealots. He should just shut the page down to all non premium members for a month then and see how well that goes for him.

    I long for the day someone else starts a new Linux hardware benchmarking site. Anyone have the time for it? Make a kickstarter and I'll be among your first contributors.
    I consider lwn the gold standard for linux sites (the H was great as well, but lwn has articles that no one could match). They've been around as long as I can remember and even with their fan base, and subsciptions, they don't have anywhere near the kind of resources you'd need for the kind work you're talking about, IMHO.
    Most of your criticisms I agree with. I'm pissed that he removed the popular in forums section from the main page (that's how I knew what to keep up with...despite some trolls, and fanboys, there are some good discussions on these boards, from time to time). I'm doubly pissed b/c I had just signed up for a subscription b/c he finally did a feature I was quite interested in. I'm triply pissed that I emailed him about all this and haven't received a response.
    Regardless he does what he can. He does seem like he works hard. If you'd like something in particular you should do it for the site b/c unless SteamBox catches on I don't think there's going to be much interest in what you want aside from what you see here.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    I'm pissed that he removed the popular in forums section from the main page (that's how I knew what to keep up with...despite some trolls, and fanboys, there are some good discussions on these boards, from time to time).
    Does it show for you now? I've been tweaking it on and off since it was removed in the first place a while back, for getting most optimal discussions to be shown and also doing so efficiently on the database [why it was removed in the first place due to many queries on the home page with adding the comments link and still trying to maintain its speed].

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Does it show for you now? I've been tweaking it on and off since it was removed in the first place a while back, for getting most optimal discussions to be shown and also doing so efficiently on the database [why it was removed in the first place due to many queries on the home page with adding the comments link and still trying to maintain its speed].
    Still no. I don't know your requirements but I assume a low poll rate of ~5-10 min would still be too heavy?
    Thanks for the response.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    Still no. I don't know your requirements but I assume a low poll rate of ~5-10 min would still be too heavy?
    Thanks for the response.
    Did you try clearing cookies or restarting browser? It's enabled right now and it's stable and has been on all day today (and will remain on since now it's in good shape). It should be on home page on right hand side, reading "Recent Discussions In The Forums". If it doesn't show up still for you, create a new thread please.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Did you try clearing cookies or restarting browser? It's enabled right now and it's stable and has been on all day today (and will remain on since now it's in good shape). It should be on home page on right hand side, reading "Recent Discussions In The Forums". If it doesn't show up still for you, create a new thread please.
    It works now. Surprising since firefox wasn't listing any cookies. Flash based?

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